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#1 Guest_Native_*

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 10:16 PM

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2191357

"From a review of the literature on meditation and depersonalization and interviews conducted with six meditators, this study concludes that: 1) meditation can cause depersonalization and derealization; 2) the meanings in the mind of the meditator regarding the experience of depersonalization will determine to a great extent whether anxiety is present as part of the experience; 3) there need not be any significant anxiety or impairment in social or occupational functioning as a result of depersonalization; 4) a depersonalized state can become an apparently permanent mode of functioning; 5) patients with Depersonalization Disorder may be treated through a process of symbolic healing--that is, changing the meanings associated with depersonalization in the mind of the patient, thereby reducing anxiety and functional impairment; 6) panic/anxiety may be caused by depersonalization if catastrophic interpretations of depersonalization are present."

#2 kaitlynf

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 10:47 PM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2191357

"From a review of the literature on meditation and depersonalization and interviews conducted with six meditators, this study concludes that: 1) meditation can cause depersonalization and derealization; 2) the meanings in the mind of the meditator regarding the experience of depersonalization will determine to a great extent whether anxiety is present as part of the experience; 3) there need not be any significant anxiety or impairment in social or occupational functioning as a result of depersonalization; 4) a depersonalized state can become an apparently permanent mode of functioning; 5) patients with Depersonalization Disorder may be treated through a process of symbolic healing--that is, changing the meanings associated with depersonalization in the mind of the patient, thereby reducing anxiety and functional impairment; 6) panic/anxiety may be caused by depersonalization if catastrophic interpretations of depersonalization are present."


i dont like number 4.

#3 Guest_bigdickmcgee_*

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 12:56 AM

fuck eckhart tolle

#4 Fabricio

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 01:36 AM

fuck eckhart tolle


eckhart tolle is just one more of us (one depersonalized more)

#5 Shapiro

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 08:28 AM

This has been a huge corner stone in my recovery. Changing our associations to the dp changes the dp. Depending on how you look at look at it dp can be a gift, a curse, or simply a state of consciousness. Our internal representation of events is what gives them meaning. Meditation helped me to dissolve the negative associations to dp. Ironically, at the time I started becoming comfortable with the dp it started to go away. Funny how stuff like that works. Anyway, interesting post.

#6 Midnight

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:49 AM

This has been a huge corner stone in my recovery. Changing our associations to the dp changes the dp. Depending on how you look at look at it dp can be a gift, a curse, or simply a state of consciousness. Our internal representation of events is what gives them meaning. Meditation helped me to dissolve the negative associations to dp. Ironically, at the time I started becoming comfortable with the dp it started to go away. Funny how stuff like that works. Anyway, interesting post.


So it's gone now is it?

I got depersonalization through a particularly poignant session of meditation where my sense of self seemed to disappear.

Meditation is NOT healthy and should not be recommended to anyone. Anyone who says otherwise has neither the experience nor the intellect required to make such a claim.

#7 Shapiro

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:32 PM

So it's gone now is it?

I got depersonalization through a particularly poignant session of meditation where my sense of self seemed to disappear.

Meditation is NOT healthy and should not be recommended to anyone. Anyone who says otherwise has neither the experience nor the intellect required to make such a claim.

Not quite. I’ve gone from 24/7 for 8 years, to minor episodes. I’m sorry you had such a negative experience. You may notice in my post I said it helps “me”. I didn’t say it would beneficial for everyone. I also mentioned that it was changing the feelings associated with the dp that helped to dissolve it, which meditation helped me to do. But certainly this can be done without mediation. As for it not being healthy, the benefits of mediation are well established and documented. I can understand your strong feelings on this point, but to say its unhealthy and recommending it indicates a lack of intellect or experience is unfair and inaccurate. Everyone is different and will respond/react differently to any given situation. Some people do find it aggravates their dp, or in your case causes it. Thanks for your insight. That is an important point to raise when discussing dp and meditation.

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 05:00 PM

So it's gone now is it?

I got depersonalization through a particularly poignant session of meditation where my sense of self seemed to disappear.

Meditation is NOT healthy and should not be recommended to anyone. Anyone who says otherwise has neither the experience nor the intellect required to make such a claim.


That's also quite a claim to make! Unfair and innacurate is a diplomatic way of putting it. I respect that you had a bad experience that turned you off meditation, and feelings of losing awareness of body and self can occur, but meditation is a blanket term that can mean many things, at least on the surface, but it's all about the quality of the state your in, as such experiences tend not to be disturbing and can be liberating in the deeper states; indeed disturbance may not even be possible due to the quality of those states, because of the physiological changes that are characteristed by them.
Even if you were to do nothing else, regularly accessing those states resets and recharges you in a profound way. When we are locked into an emergency state of stress and anxiety we become exhausted. Maintaining this condition requires a huge amount of energy. Our bodys can start to shut down non essential systems, leading to depression and loss of cognitive function. When activated we can swing from high anxiety to numb, dissociated sensation. We are living on the edge of our nerves. You only have to read around these boards to see how thinnly stretched, on the end of their tethers, and just plain exhausted people are.
The mind and body naturally recover, but only when we can get out the way long enough to allow them to. These deeper states are healing states, and until I was able to access them regularly, no matter how much progress I had made processing issues, I was always on the edge of burnout. That made processing even harder and I would be in a vicious circle. Many will be familiar with brain wave states, and they are a convenient way to catagorise meditative quality. The surface, thinking, logical state is characteristed by Beta waves. In chronic cases this may include endless ruminating and racing thoughts. Using the imagination, by taking our time to use all our senses in our minds, we activate Alpha waves - the bridge to the subconcious. We then deepen into Theta. After that is Delta, which is usually deep sleep.
A simple formula is first physically relax, then imagine a scene using all your senses to activate Alpha, then go on a journey where you are moving through, in and around your imagined scene to deepen to Theta. Use your senses to make it a real as possible and get as involved in it as you can.
You may think that it can't be that simple, but keeping it simple is the best way. It really doesn't matter what you imagine. It's state, not content that is important. Make it something that will engage you (your subconscious mind is you, and if you find something boring, so will it). And be patient. And by that I mean when you are actually doing it, I dont mean you have to practice for weeks before expecting changes. Be patient today. You will know when your state has changed because it's quality is different. Your mind may still and your body relax as you let go into the experience.
This sounds easy, and should be, but for us the hard part is the surface disturbance. For that I find it best to spend some time with a mindful process, where you completely accept how you are feeling at that time. You cannot be conflicted when you are accepting everything and not fighting yourself. I allow for a "felt sense", which is where I allow all my thoughts and feelings to just merge together into an overall, amorphous blob of the totality of how I am feeling at that moment, ignoring all detail, and just sit with that until I settle. This is useful so you are not snatching at all the details of your thoughts and feelings, which gets you no-where. I often say that personal integration is what recovery is all about, and that illness is the confusion of being diffused and scattered. In the deeper states we can come back together, rest and heal.
Hope this helps. :)

#9 Midnight

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 12:50 PM

That's also quite a claim to make! Unfair and innacurate is a diplomatic way of putting it. I respect that you had a bad experience that turned you off meditation, and feelings of losing awareness of body and self can occur, but meditation is a blanket term that can mean many things, at least on the surface, but it's all about the quality of the state your in, as such experiences tend not to be disturbing and can be liberating in the deeper states; indeed disturbance may not even be possible due to the quality of those states, because of the physiological changes that are characteristed by them.
Even if you were to do nothing else, regularly accessing those states resets and recharges you in a profound way. When we are locked into an emergency state of stress and anxiety we become exhausted. Maintaining this condition requires a huge amount of energy. Our bodys can start to shut down non essential systems, leading to depression and loss of cognitive function. When activated we can swing from high anxiety to numb, dissociated sensation. We are living on the edge of our nerves. You only have to read around these boards to see how thinnly stretched, on the end of their tethers, and just plain exhausted people are.
The mind and body naturally recover, but only when we can get out the way long enough to allow them to. These deeper states are healing states, and until I was able to access them regularly, no matter how much progress I had made processing issues, I was always on the edge of burnout. That made processing even harder and I would be in a vicious circle. Many will be familiar with brain wave states, and they are a convenient way to catagorise meditative quality. The surface, thinking, logical state is characteristed by Beta waves. In chronic cases this may include endless ruminating and racing thoughts. Using the imagination, by taking our time to use all our senses in our minds, we activate Alpha waves - the bridge to the subconcious. We then deepen into Theta. After that is Delta, which is usually deep sleep.
A simple formula is first physically relax, then imagine a scene using all your senses to activate Alpha, then go on a journey where you are moving through, in and around your imagined scene to deepen to Theta. Use your senses to make it a real as possible and get as involved in it as you can.
You may think that it can't be that simple, but keeping it simple is the best way. It really doesn't matter what you imagine. It's state, not content that is important. Make it something that will engage you (your subconscious mind is you, and if you find something boring, so will it). And be patient. And by that I mean when you are actually doing it, I dont mean you have to practice for weeks before expecting changes. Be patient today. You will know when your state has changed because it's quality is different. Your mind may still and your body relax as you let go into the experience.
This sounds easy, and should be, but for us the hard part is the surface disturbance. For that I find it best to spend some time with a mindful process, where you completely accept how you are feeling at that time. You cannot be conflicted when you are accepting everything and not fighting yourself. I allow for a "felt sense", which is where I allow all my thoughts and feelings to just merge together into an overall, amorphous blob of the totality of how I am feeling at that moment, ignoring all detail, and just sit with that until I settle. This is useful so you are not snatching at all the details of your thoughts and feelings, which gets you no-where. I often say that personal integration is what recovery is all about, and that illness is the confusion of being diffused and scattered. In the deeper states we can come back together, rest and heal.
Hope this helps. :)



That's not really meditation in it's truest form. That sounds like projection, which isn't meditation.

Though meditation may have a ton of different meanings, true meditation is self-inquiry. Real meditation, as was described by the great sages like Ramana Maharshi, was discovering the root of the 'I' thought. Turns out it vanishes when you look enough. Not good.

I am rarely confident about anything, but one thing that I will say is that meditation can cause terrible side effects. People can use it as a crutch to prevent dealing with emotional pain and there are thousands of people out there doing just that.

Real meditation is almost nihilistic and is not 'beneficial' in the egoic sense. It is NOT, (contrary to what people may believe), a self-improvement tool.

Just be careful.

#10 Midnight

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 12:52 PM

Not quite. I’ve gone from 24/7 for 8 years, to minor episodes. I’m sorry you had such a negative experience. You may notice in my post I said it helps “me”. I didn’t say it would beneficial for everyone. I also mentioned that it was changing the feelings associated with the dp that helped to dissolve it, which meditation helped me to do. But certainly this can be done without mediation. As for it not being healthy, the benefits of mediation are well established and documented. I can understand your strong feelings on this point, but to say its unhealthy and recommending it indicates a lack of intellect or experience is unfair and inaccurate. Everyone is different and will respond/react differently to any given situation. Some people do find it aggravates their dp, or in your case causes it. Thanks for your insight. That is an important point to raise when discussing dp and meditation.


Can you please explain your process of meditation and how it helped with depersonalization or derealization?

Thanks. I'm very interest in what exactly you mean when you say meditation.

#11 Shapiro

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:53 AM

Can you please explain your process of meditation and how it helped with depersonalization or derealization?

Thanks. I'm very interest in what exactly you mean when you say meditation.

Certainly. When I say meditation I also mean mindfulness. The two go hand in hand, meditation acts as training and a reset for mindfulness. During formal meditation practice I simply concentrate on my breathing. Other times I do guided meditation. Thoughts do arise, with a non-judgmental awareness I allow them to pass without attaching meaning to them. For me it’s time to simply “be” without analyzing my environment through my own personal filter. Just accepting everything as is. In “real time” it’s a beneficial skill because I can consciously observe my thoughts and their place of origin. Much of dp persists based on fear, its common this fear comes from pre-conditioned reactions that are entirely unnecessary. With mindfulness I can break out of auto pilot and respond to the situation at hand without falling victim to outdated cycles. I disagree that meditation is nihilistic. It encourages accepting all aspects of life, including the ego. Nothing in existence is denied, it’s presented in its true form free of our internal representation. Fear, taking things personally, jealousy, hate comes from our ego making judgment calls based on our perception versus reality. Honoring your ego, along with all elements of yourself is an integral part of the process. Many of the great sages had the benefit of living in seclusion. I found the vanishing of “I” very comforting. When I stopped defining myself by my job, my roles, my appearance and so on, I found a freedom to truly be myself. However seclusion for most of us is unrealistic. I made an urban adaption in accepting the “I” as part of the human experience, while understanding these elements as transient. There are days I still struggle. Like any recovery it’s a process, there are no quick fixes. Choosing a recovery path is very personal. One’s salvation can be another’s destruction. I could argue that feeding the ego is an emotional crutch and in itself nihilistic, but I see the truth in both our statements. The answer comes down to personal experience, perception and preferences. Your points are justifiable and do much to dissolve the romance surrounding meditation and illuminate the darker side some will experience. Thanks, passion and critical thinking seems to be a rare trait these days.

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 09:36 AM

[quote name='Midnight' timestamp='1344793857' post='262673']
That's not really meditation in it's truest form. That sounds like projection, which isn't meditation.

Though meditation may have a ton of different meanings, true meditation is self-inquiry. Real meditation, as was described by the great sages like Ramana Maharshi, was discovering the root of the 'I' thought. Turns out it vanishes when you look enough. Not good.

I am rarely confident about anything, but one thing that I will say is that meditation can cause terrible side effects. People can use it as a crutch to prevent dealing with emotional pain and there are thousands of people out there doing just that.

Real meditation is almost nihilistic and is not 'beneficial' in the egoic sense. It is NOT, (contrary to what people may believe), a self-improvement tool.

Just be careful.



I'm abit dubious of your use of terms like "real" or "true meditation". That sounds to me like the kind of thing different schools would say arguing semantics. You seem to be defining "real meditation" on the topic used, but that is just content, and again I would say that it is state, not content that defines the quality or nature of the meditative experience, and therefor whether or not you are really meditating at all. Whether you are contemplating the root of "I" or thinking about what to have for lunch, unless it is used as a point of focus that deepens concentration and state, you are really only thinking. In fact, that is usually the real purpose of the subject matter chosen, to deepen state to where they realise that the question is actually meaningless, just a artificial concept and not a living experience. but anything can be used for that. You could picture a duck playing tennis, if you wanted to. Maybe it satisfies the ego of the student to give them some high concept to ponder on until they realise it is just words. I also don't always think that trauma or mental disturbance in general is taken into account very often in teaching meditation, which can lead to confusion. I also suspect that in many teachings it is already assumed that the student will be able to deepen state and have a basic grounding. So your note of caution is a valid one. When people are disturbed they should not be ruminating on metaphysical matters or such-like that will only disturb them. Because state defines the quality of experience, if you are in a troubled surface state, it is not very surprising if your experience proves troubling. That is why I gave simple, safe instructions for deepening state, and did not dwell on philosophical matters, as that is all someone need concern themselves with if they are looking to recover from mental health issues. truly relaxing and letting go into a deeper state is soothing, like being wrapped in a warm blanket. Once there, it is very difficult to be disturbed by anything. Once you are familiar with doing this, it is then a personal choice as to whether or not you want to look at deeper existential questions, but, funnily enough, you tend to find with deeper states that most of these questions just dissolve by themselves.




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