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How is DP not just PTSD?


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#25 flat

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:29 AM

Mirror test???

#26 violetgirl

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:25 AM

2. Violetgirl, to attack me when you know I was abused is cruel. I have difficulties with feeling unloved. As far as I'm concerned I had no parents.

Being traumatized as noted affects us all. But to varying degrees.
My only point was that PTSD, is a different illness from DPD. I have DPD. I actually mentioned my severe reaction to your comments and others here to my therapist ... I want to be liked. She said, the two, PTSD and DPD, are not the same -- she has patients with DID, PTSD, chronic DPD, and anxiety disorders of various sorts. She has been a therapist working with individuals who have been traumatized ... oh about 25 years.



Don't twist my words. We have ALL been abused on here, one way or another. We ALL have difficulties with feeling unloved.

I have a right to challenge the things you say on here. I know very well how much DP is linked to abuse, but I am not going to stand back and watch study after study being bought out, and many of us don't agree with your viewpoint.

We ALL want to be liked, Dreamer. But that doesnt mean we can't criticise the things you say on here. I know it hurts, but that's life.

PTSD as far as i'm concerned is a redundant term. Most maladaptive coping mechanisms- self harm, drinking, DP, DID, BPD, NPD, ASPD are PTSD.

They are all ways of not feeling the original trauma. BPD has flashbacks, so does DID.

#27 Fluke93

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:30 AM

I love your copy and paste work Dreamer. Aboslutely brilliant work. I read through it all and it is all very interesting. Keep it up.

#28 Fluke93

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:05 PM

Listen right heres my opinion right sorry if its not intellectual enough for you. People with mental illnesses will feel ashamed of themselves a lot of the time. Whys this? Because its 2012. And there is a massive stigma linked with mental illnesses. We're in the dark ages right now, otherwise none of us would be here now. Because even if we had DP there would probably be things to make you better or at least reduce symptoms of it. When DP first hit for me, it felt like i was being RAPED mentally. And when i stumbled out of the hospital ward i went to out of fear, this was an ordinary A&E I felt like a fucking victim of physical rape. It would not have surprised me if they was all laughing at me in the staff room. I'm telling you now the state i was in was not fucking funny.

I have not read all the posts on here but judging from the posts ive briefly read through the above ones and i think a lot of the time there should not even be a category, maybe disorders don't even exist (mental ones). Maybe we're just plainly fucked up. You look at someone with a real mental disease that have symptoms that give the victims symptoms the name schizophrenia, or pychosis. How many of them symptoms mimic anxiety? Bad example maybe. But something thats struck me lately is depression mimics a lot of symptoms of derealization and depersonalization. A lot of people with depression feel cut off from the world, a lot of them say that they don't recognise themselves in the mirror. Some of them have no energy, some of them feel numb, and some of them say or have said that the world just LOOKS and FEELS different.

For instance watch these videos

(try and find and watch part 1 and watch it all the way through as its really good)




If you watch both of these you'll find that more than a few times things that mimic or strike some sort of chord with DP/DR.


From personal experience I am apalled and i am angry and i will always be angry at the NHS, at the mental health system and as far as i can see in a lot of other countries it is even WORSE. Not saying some have not had good expeirences, but i can see a lot who have just been let down. You know what really hurts? The face that i didnt even expect them to make me better, just wanted some support. I've had enough of this bollocks. I was actually crying my eyes out once asking to see a doctor and told her panic attacks is my issue. She missed heard me and said "Anal sex?". HAHAHA WTF ARE YOU SERIOUS. See i was in pain, I was a 17 year old kid who looked about 14-15 and thought i was cool, been reduced to this. SOME FUCKING FEMALE THINKING I WAS GAY.

What you lot dont understand is its hard for men. We gotta be tough, but when mental illness strikes its hard to be isn't it? When you feel like shit daily. But guess what when i reached out I was mocked. This is why Dreamer a lot of people are getting angry, me in particular with all this research that never gets anywhere. It hasn't got you anywhere in the what 4 decades you've had it? Have you improved one bit? All a mental disorder is is a name with a list of symptoms which link most to that name. If i went to the doctors tomorrow and said "I have no energy, i cant eat much, i feel like crying all day" all they will do is say instantly you're depressed without even going into it with detail. Putting names on things they have no idea about is ridiculous.

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:23 PM

Mental Illnesses exist. Stigma will be destroyed when these illnesses move into the neurological realm. Here is the letter of a study coming out of the IoP in London, not funded by Big Pharma but by research grants. We label all illnesses, that is how they can be properly treated. If you don't believe in Science, there is nothing I can do to convince you.

Biological Psychiatry
Article in Press
Multiple Clinical Traits Predict Clinical Diagnosis of Depersonalization Disorder: Implications for DSM-V

Erwin Lemcheemail address
Simon A. Surguladze
Michael J. Brammer
Mary L. Phillips
Mauricio Sierra
Anthony S. David
Steven C.R. Williams
Vincent P. Giampietro

published online 30 December 2011.
Corrected Proof


Full Text
PDF
References

Article Outline

Acknowledgment
References
Copyright

This letter to the editor, indicating a full study coming out, indicates that DPD may be REMOVED FROM THE CATEGORY OF DISSOCIATIVE DISORDERS and can be associated more closely with depression and somatic disorders. The IoP was given a grant for this research in England, at Kings College. Big Pharma, etc. had nothing to do with Dr. Sierra's research.


To the Editor: [of Biological Psychiatry]

"There is currently no final conclusion to which nosological group depersonalization disorder (DPD) can be assigned. DPD is characterized by three features—namely, a distorted body image, estrangement from reality in the absence of any psychotic perceptual interference, and estrangement from emotional and bodily feelings (1). In the ICD-10, DPD constitutes a separate nosological category, whereas in the DSM-IV, it is subsumed under dissociative disorders. Some clinical experts claim that DPD rather shares features with either anxiety disorders or with depression (2). To elucidate this problem further, we investigated cerebral emotion processing in DPD patients sampled nationwide across England, where we correlated relevant personality traits with brain response to happy and sad facial stimuli. Differential regression analyses were computed in which the regions discriminating DPD and normal control subjects (NC) groups were indicated by significant differences in regression slopes for these two groups.

The study was conducted in compliance with the Helsinki Declaration (3). All subjects gave written informed consent to the scientific use of their data and were reimbursed for their participation. All experimental procedures were endorsed by the Bethlem Royal and Maudsley Ethics Committee (Research), London, United Kingdom. The study included a sample of nine individuals, five men and four women, with a primary diagnosis of DPD. The clinical cutoff level of >70 on the Cambridge Depersonalization Scale (CDS) item version total scale discriminative for DPD (4) was exceeded for all patients (175.77 ± 12.31). Twelve NC subjects, 7 men and 5 women, were also included. NC subjects were chosen to match sample characteristics of DPD patients. Two expert psychiatrists had independently confirmed the DPD diagnosis according to DSM-IV criteria.

All subjects completed self-report forms before being introduced to the experimental protocol inside the scanner. Further to the CDS clinical cutoff measure for DPD (4), clinical symptoms potentially relevant for DPD were assessed using the Dissociative Experience Scale (DES) (5), the Screening for Somatoform Disorders (SOMS-2) (6), the Beck Depression Inventory (BDI) (7), and the State–Trait Anxiety Inventory (STAI-Y1 and Y2, respectively) (8). These self-report instruments were used to estimate their unique variance contributions and respective classification specificities for clinical DPD diagnoses in logistic regression and receiver-operating characteristics models reporting areas under the curve (AUC).

Each of these clinical trait taxons significantly predicted the clinical DPD diagnosis, and also demonstrated sufficient classification specificity for the clinical diagnosis. For the SOMS-2, Nagelkerke R2 = .51, Wald = 4.24, p < .001, AUC = .801, p < .021 (95% confidence interval [CIs] .577–1.025); for the BDI, Nagelkerke R2 = .62, Wald = 4.26, p < .001, AUC = .894, p < .003 (95% CIs .723–1.064); for the DES, the Nagelkerke R2 = .39, Wald = 4.19, p < .007, AUC = .764, p < .043 (95% CIs .515–1.013); for the STAI-Y1, Nagelkerke R2 = .24, Wald = 3.03, p < .039, AUC = .713, p < .049 (95% CIs .475–.951); and for the STAI-Y2, Nagelkerke R2 = .31, Wald = 3.23, p < .019, AUC = .782, p < .030 (95% CIs .573–.991). In summary, it can be stated that BDI and SOMS-2 have unique variance proportions greater than 50% for clinical diagnoses and have AUCs greater than 80%. The DES, STAI-Y1, and STAI-Y2 are weaker predictors in comparison, but still yield significant regression models and are also valid classifiers for the clinical DPD diagnosis.

Under stimulation with happy facial expression, regions significantly discriminating the DPD and NC groups were, for somatization severity, the right temporal operculum; for dissociative experience, the right supramarginal gyrus (Brodmann's area [BA] 40); for depression load, left pulvinar nucleus of the thalamus; for state anxiety level, the left inferior frontal gyrus (BA 45); and for trait anxiety level, the right caput of the caudate nucleus. During sad-face processing, DPD and NC groups differed significantly in the following regions: for somatization, bilateral ventral striatum adjacent to the subgenual cortices (BA 25); for dissociation, the left inferior temporal gyrus (BA 36); for depression, left amygdala; for state anxiety, left parahippocampal gyrus (BA 28); and for trait anxiety level, right superior temporal gyrus (BA 22).

Among the main findings of the current study is the result that the regions significantly discriminating between the two experimental groups with regard to somatization are in the bilateral ventral striatum in the sad condition and the temporal operculum in the happy condition. These findings are consistent with the notion that somatization is dependent of the serotonin system and that somatization sensations could follow neural representations of interoception. The second main finding is the differential association clusters of dissociation in supramarginal and inferior temporal cortices, respectively. The finding that amygdalar engagement and thalamic activation are discriminative for depressiveness is well in line with previous finding implicating these limbic regions in depression. The association of state anxiety with the neural response in the inferior frontal gyrus to happy faces, and parahippocampal gyrus to sad emotion, is also consistent with published literature for anxiety in affective disorders (9). The discriminative regions for trait anxiety are the caudate head and the superior temporal gyrus. This finding also replicates previous findings observed for state anxiety (10).

In summary, this study has presented evidence that DPD patients show a number of clinical traits that predict the clinical diagnosis to varying degrees. Therefore, our results do not give rise for the assignment of DPD to any specific nosological group. Instead, this sample indicates a rather multidimensional picture of DPD. Using a whole-brain differential regression neuroimaging approach, we ascertained the cerebral correlates of these traits, as elicited by tasks of facial emotion processing. The neuroimaging results also reveal that the clinical traits tested have separate cerebral bases, implicating that independent cerebral mechanisms subserve the individual traits tested for. The main findings in the behavioral domain were the following: the strongest predictors for DPD diagnosis were depression severity, then somatization severity. Although trait dissociation is also a significant predictor of DPD, its classification specificity is considerably lower than depression and somatization. Therefore, the fact that dissociation and anxiety were found to be only weaker predictors of clinical DPD diagnosis, whereas depression and somatization were the strongest predictors, contradicts or at least relativizes the current status of DPD in the DSM-IV. Our results suggest that the impending revisions of classifications in DSM-V or ICD-11 should take into account the demonstrated multitrait association of DPD."

Take it or leave it.
If you don't have a proper diagnosis, you can't be treated properly, and that includes both THERAPY and other medical or holistic interventions.


#30 Guest_Le Chat_*

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:35 PM

,,,

#31 Guest_Le Chat_*

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:38 PM

,,,

#32 Guest_Le Chat_*

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:45 PM

Don't twist my words. We have ALL been abused on here, one way or another. We ALL have difficulties with feeling unloved.

I have a right to challenge the things you say on here. I know very well how much DP is linked to abuse, but I am not going to stand back and watch study after study being bought out, and many of us don't agree with your viewpoint.

We ALL want to be liked, Dreamer. But that doesnt mean we can't criticise the things you say on here. I know it hurts, but that's life.

PTSD as far as i'm concerned is a redundant term. Most maladaptive coping mechanisms- self harm, drinking, DP, DID, BPD, NPD, ASPD are PTSD.

They are all ways of not feeling the original trauma. BPD has flashbacks, so does DID.


No Violetgirl we have not all been abused. There are many with DP/DR who have NOT. I don't attack you. As I said, don't read my posts if they bother you so much. Put me on "Ignore" I have put you on "Ignore" -- fair? Simple. I know many here w/DP/DR who came from loving supporting families. Why doesn't the entire world have DP/DR?

I'm sorry for the abuse in your life -- it shouldn't have happened. I don't expect you to have any compassion for mine. That's fine.

Edited by Dreamer*, 27 March 2012 - 01:01 PM.


#33 Fluke93

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:49 PM

Thank you very much. Do you read these articles? Even the difficult ones. No. I really don't care. These articles are for those other people on the board who may find them interesting. There IS extensive research into DP/DR.

Your internet evidence is a tad weak compared to neuroscientific/psychiatric/neurological research. But I listen to it too.
Put me on ignore Fluke.

I copy articles I have read, and other sources to encourage people to read certain portions without having to click on a link. This is from a journal that can only be accessed from my university and a link would not work. I'm actually violating a copyright. Others here do the same with abandon.


Didn't claim I had any evidence !!

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:53 PM

,,,

#35 Fluke93

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 01:14 PM

So why is mine so threatening to you? Not that it matters. Bye.
You posted videos.

If you actually read what i fucking said you silly little madam instead of pasting bollocks from wikipedia and other sites to try and make yourself look intelligent then you might get why i posted what i posted. It was an opinion not evidence. It was just a question. A question to the rest of the site.

#36 violetgirl

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 02:05 PM

No Violetgirl we have not all been abused. There are many with DP/DR who have NOT. I don't attack you. As I said, don't read my posts if they bother you so much. Put me on "Ignore" I have put you on "Ignore" -- fair? Simple. I know many here w/DP/DR who came from loving supporting families. Why doesn't the entire world have DP/DR?

I'm sorry for the abuse in your life -- it shouldn't have happened. I don't expect you to have any compassion for mine. That's fine.


How dare you! I have compassion for everyone who has been abused, including you. Just because I don't agree with you.

Your logic is ridiculous.

They may THINK they come from a loving, supportive home, but chances are if they have a dissociative disorder, they didn't. Emotional abuse is hard to spot. Denial. Blocking things out. We don't yet know the extent of how trauma effects people. Do you know their background?

Why doesn't the entire world have self-harm, alcoholism, ASPD, anorexia, bulima? Simply because we have different brain makeup, and we react to trauma differently.

And I haven't attacked you! I just don't agree with what you've said.




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