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How is DP not just PTSD?


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#13 violetgirl

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 07:11 PM

It is true that the symptoms of people diagnosed with PTSD are largely different from the symptoms we as DP sufferers experience. But that doesn't mean that trauma is not involved in both cases. It's just a different form of trauma.
DP sufferers, on the other hand, usually have experienced emotional trauma that goes beyond what they can bear, understand or process. The problem is that our society does not acknowledge this kind of trauma - it is too subtle, not obvious enough and a very subjective experience.


This is so true. So many forms of childhood trauma are just accepted. It could be parents divorcing, being moved around a lot from school to school, being adopted, an ill sibling. Even forms of physical disciple are still acceptable, but it's traumatising. And even sexual abuse in the form of emotional incest is acceptable-daddy's girl/ princess, and mummy's boy. It's crazy how much abuse is tolerated!

Emotional abuse is so hard to spot. Having narcissitc parents would rob you of your identity and self-esteem, yet nobody would spot it because they are so good at putting on a front. Even not being allowed to express strong emotions is invalidating and doesnt allow a child to grow emotionally.

#14 kate_edwin

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:14 PM

They ma have similar features
but they aren't the same thing. I have dp
from
trauma and I've never really fit the dx of ptsd. Dissociation can be part of ptsd, but it doesn't have to be.

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:35 PM

Says who?

We are only beginning to understand how trauma effects people. Which book or system are you goin by? The psychiatric system is full of crap, as far as I'm concerned. It's obsessed with putting things in the right groups, not about helping people.

I think it's so dangerous to put all this medical jargon on here, it's all just opinion!

OCD/ anxiety/ DP/ eating disorders/ alcoholism. They're all maladaptive coping mechanisms. All ways of coping with pain.

Doesn't matter about semantics or getting the proper names for things.

Dreamer, you need to stop being so hung up on details, and start looking at the bigger picture!


Says who? LOL. You didn't read my post at all. It is full of resources. I don't care, but whatever.

Violetgirl, I always seem to make you upset and that is not my intention. I am simply very involved in mental health advocacy and come in contact with many professionals, sufferers, etc.

I would ask you again ... do we disregard the accounts of War Veterans, see post below from the ReMind website ... are THEY not telling the truth about THEIR experiences? They describe certain symptoms that torture them. This particular cluster of symptoms is common to THEM. WE have a cluster of symptoms common to US. There may be a slight overlap, but this is a particular type of trauma, and a specific response to it.

To see the Forest, you need to learn about many trees. And I explained, I hold more hope in neurological/biological research than psychiatry on its own. I also said that if proven otherwise, I will change my stance. Individuals with PTSD have also been trying to be heard, get noticed, and it has only become possible now as medicine allows soldiers to survive horrific injuries that they would NOT have survived in earlier wars, or at least US soldiers from Iran, Afghanistan, Desert Storm.

Also, re: Naloxone. As I said, for the first time, I have been offered Naloxone by my resident psychiatrist who took the time to research my illness, read my website, read Dr. Sierra's book, and then speak to another doctor at the VA Hospital here. My psychiatrist is at the University of Michigan. The individual at the VA hospital -- deals with Veterans, that's what a VA hospital is. Hearing the details of my case, he said outright, I have DPD. This is not what many of his other veteran patients have which is PTSD, and TBI. I think he would know the difference.

I don't want to try Naloxone and won't. I've heard many bad things about it here. But the fact that my doctor is aware of it, that it was recently mentioned in a current article of Biological Psychiatry means something.

One has to start somewhere. And understanding what we have and what we don't have, can lead us to answers.

http://remind.org/
ReMind, The Bob Woodruff Foundation

Individuals on the website there are encouraged to post their stories or comments.
Bob Woodruff is a well known journalist from my state who suffered serious head injuries while embedded with troops. He knows PTSD as well. Personally. I have read what he has written. Personal accounts.

Timothy 49 E-3 United States Navy Waco, TX United States
I am a veteran who suffered PTSD due to 2 different aircraft crashes. I worked on the hanger deck during the first one, and witnessed the second. between these two crashes alone, I lost 18 shipmates. For years, until the 1990's the VA refused to admit that PTSD existed for anyone but Vietnam Vets. I am finally getting treatment for it through the VA. I am looking for any fellow vets who are going to Baylor University or McLennan Community College for the purpose of forming a support group. I can be contacted either at [email protected], [email protected], or on Facebook.


This soldier's email is out there and he is on FB. I'm sure if you wished to talk with someone with PTSD, and I have sat listening to groups of Veterans speak of it, you would simply gain a greater perspective. I also have a good friend whose son served three tours of duty in Iraq and Af.... he does not have PTSD thank God, and he doesn't have DP either. He actually lost his hearing! He however is doing very well with a special implant and his mom is so happy that he will not return. She watches for PTSD in him. So far, so good. He has seen death, and escaped death.

And Violet, you know I came from a very sick, destructive family. I am angry and sad about it. My goal is to educate and spread the word. Again, you don't have to read what I post, and I have no clue how information supported by current heavy duty medical research can be damaging. If you wish to become a doctor or a lawyer or anything else, you need to understand MANY things. If I can get a copy of the most current research in that journal I'll post it. NO, we don't have answers, but we are moving along. Scientific knowledge is dangerous? *facepalm* You learn, you sort through, you question, you form an opinion. I may be right or wrong, but on this topic I am pretty well convinced. IMHO.


Is this entire ReMind organization lying? Not trying to help its members? Are soldiers NOT talking about DP/DR for some reason. I thank God that PTSD has become an important topic now, as i see it influencing research into ALL traumas. This is very specific. That much I can say from my research and experience.

Edited by Dreamer*, 18 March 2012 - 11:45 PM.


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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:35 PM

And thanks Kate for putting it in a short and sweet manner.

I know I carry on, but I like to share EVIDENCE of where I got my opinion.

#17 rightwrong99

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 10:30 AM

Says who?

We are only beginning to understand how trauma effects people. Which book or system are you goin by? The psychiatric system is full of crap, as far as I'm concerned. It's obsessed with putting things in the right groups, not about helping people.

I think it's so dangerous to put all this medical jargon on here, it's all just opinion!

OCD/ anxiety/ DP/ eating disorders/ alcoholism. They're all maladaptive coping mechanisms. All ways of coping with pain.

Doesn't matter about semantics or getting the proper names for things.

Dreamer, you need to stop being so hung up on details, and start looking at the bigger picture!



Violetgirl you are brilliant. Love this post.

Dreamer - I wish you could look at things differently, but I understand that after decades of the same problems you want an answer that finally makes sense to you and explains what you're feeling - and believing that its a perceptual distortion unrelated to PTSD or trauma or disorganized attachment is a good way of doing that.

What Violetgirl says... that all of these "disorder" are maladaptive coping mechanism. Its so dead on. Unfortunately most people cannot see beyond the western models of diagnoses and models of mental illnesses.

As I've recovered, this so called "perceptual distortion" has fallen away - indeed a faulty coping mechanism keeping my brain and myself free fom any kind of overwhelming stimuli. DPDR is a type of coping mechanism. Some people get it. Some people don't. And for some people, it becomes chronic - a cycle that cannot be broken because their brain has taken over. Their ability to rationalize has gone out the window and their disconnection is no longer within their control. The same thing happens with PTSD and thats why it develops... chronic depression as well. Its a snowball effect and once the snowball is big enough ,it keeps rolling and there's little to none yo can do about it anymore.

#18 rightwrong99

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:18 AM

And thanks Kate for putting it in a short and sweet manner.

I know I carry on, but I like to share EVIDENCE of where I got my opinion.


I've been on this forum for a year and a half now and see you post the same things over and over, like a broken record. Not sure how else to put this without sounding offensive - I don't intend to do any harm.

But I'm just curious, and maybe you have the answer, maybe you don't - but why is it that you want to believe scientists and journal articles and your NAMI friends instead of the people who are and have already recovered? The people who are and have experienced first hand what it is to come out on the other side?

Just like with Kate, I know you guys have had these disorders for a long time, and if I had it for that long, I would also be extremely skeptical, distrusting, and generally disbelieving of cures and recovery because to believe otherwise would be having to face the harsh realization that I myself haven't been able to recover. Its like a loss of hope that translated into a complacency and acceptance that merely perpetuates the problem.

HOWEVER - I don't think there is anything you can do about it, honestly. Considering that the right brain, the logical, self soothing, self controlling part of the brain that has learn to selfregulate based on the needs of the child has not developed properly. In other words, if you have attachment issues, which is more than likely, you can't be rational, recognize yourself, or talk back to yourself. Without this ability, overcoming any mental disorder would be nearly impossible. Relating to other people would be impossible.
Its as if the medical journals, articles, and all that has become "your voice." Your protection. Your secure base. Your mother.
I have seen little to no posts on here that come from "you" - that talk about you.

Sandy - I ask you three questions
1. Do you believe anymore that you can recover?
2. Do you believe that you can form a sense of self after decades of this loss of self?
3. And the most important question of all - do you want to? I mean, deep down, do you really want to?

There is no doubt that that change and recovery is HARD. Just like it is hard for a child to grow up, and to develop a sense of self. There are obstacles. Challenges. Heartbreaks. Confusion. Recovery will not be easy. And to leave behind years and decades of mental anguish is like parting with a good friend. You are used to it.

In my recovery I have experienced both great joy and great pain. To have suffered for so long and realizing that I don't have to suffer anymore is a hard thing to come to terms with. I am used to suffering. I am used to relying on others to "Help me." I became accustomed to the idea that recovery was indeed not possible, that I had to accept my condition, and that I would never lead a normal life. The hardest part of all has been forgiving those people who originally I thought were to blame for my illness - all those in my life that made me feel shame, guilt, etc.
My parents for not loving me enough. Which, at the end of the day, I realize is subjective. Everyone tries their hardest.

I would love to discuss this with you without alluding to medical and scientific journals, if possible, or if interested.

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 12:00 PM

Huggy Bear

Why don't you want to try it and what bad things have you heard about it?


I can't answer all of these questions, but for goodness sake! Why is it I get attacked for clarifying something. No clue. And after a night of vomiting from the flu. LOL. Don't feel like doing much else but sit and stare at the TV.

I now post infrequently as my "job" so to speak is advocacy. If you don't believe in my POV, fine.

Re: Naloxone/Naltrexone, as someone noted, if you search the board you will see many experiences described. Everyone here seems to respect the fact that Uni Girl has tried many, many medications trying to get better. I have contacted her and asked about her experience with it. She said it was horrible, though she tried to go on it and off of it numerous times.

I'm too tired on that one to go forward on this save "never giving up" stated that s/he "has been reading up on this." Why not tell him/her to top reading and go out and live life.

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 12:15 PM

Sandy - I ask you three questions
1. Do you believe anymore that you can recover?
2. Do you believe that you can form a sense of self after decades of this loss of self?
3. And the most important question of all - do you want to? I mean, deep down, do you really want to?


Again attacked in a condescending, insulting manner.

1. Probably not, and I was told that when I was 15, and those who work with MY type of DPD, from when I was 4 or 5 that was not treated for so long my prognosis is poor. That doesn't mean that I haven't made every effort to get better. I have been in psychoanalysis, I have worked extremely hard to get better. Do you honestly think someone would toss away their life. I have a BA and an MA, I have worked in Hollywood in production on a TV show, at PBS. I have severe ANXIETY, as well as depression, as well as DPD, as well as having been treated like garbage by my mother who was a psychiatrist.

I want to help ALL people with mental illness. So you would say to someone w/schizophrenia, "Snap out of it?" "You obviously don't want to get better?" Why aren't you better already??????

2. I am not sure if I can get better, but I can keep trying. Why the Hell am I answering these insults.

And I don't "hang around here" calling people names and attacking them, I state facts. I probably come across differently on the internet. And I apologize if people think I'm rude. I'm not. I have many supportive friends, was here when the original DP Board was created and those early individuals did research themselves to HELP OTHER PEOPLE. Helped get Dr. Sierra's work to the attention of others. Also, in those days, knowledge meant something.

3. But I was never on the internet, had NO information about DPD until 1999 and I was born in 1958. The internet opened me up to many organizations that help the mentally ill. I have found purpose and meaning in my life by telling my story. What in God's name do you want from me?

There is a spectrum of severity of any illness. How dare you measure my strength. I could have killed myself years ago, and wanted to.

I can't respond to people who refuse to look at what knowledge exists.

And to whomever. "Naive" ..... I said the reason I was so impressed was MY RESIDENT, M.D. has taken extra time to research my illness. I was shocked when he mentioned Naloxone and RESEARCH THAT MAY VERY WELL CHANGE THE PLACE OF DPD IN THE ICD AND DSM. I also am involved in the DSM revision project offering comments. I have given that link as well many times.

I give up. I really do.
Listen to anyone else who sites a chart, medical research, etc. and they are wonderful. Let me cite something and I am a bitch, negative, whatever.

Fine. I really don't come here as often anymore and won't report back on new information. I'm sick of the ignorance here.

I praise everyone's courage. But each one of us is unique. This could be 100% neurologal but that is too simplistic though schizophrenia, bipolar for example have been PROVEN to be medical. READ A FREAKIN' BOOK.

To Hell with this.
I won't be attacked anymore.

I lived 42 YEARS not knowing what was wrong with me. Pushed on with my life. Got married. Am well educated beyond my MA. I help others. Excuse me for trying to help. I'm done with this place.

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 12:33 PM

I lost part of that post dammit.

http://www.dpselfhel...h&fromMainBar=1
Link to the search engine on the board.

Link to one of many posts by people who have experimented with this.
http://www.dpselfhel...__1#entry251049

You know, if I were cruel and got better, I wouldn't come back here. But I'm not. I would report my full experience. But NO, there are NO cures available for us right now, but that's true for Parkinson's, and I have cancer and there is no cure. I must live with it. Hope it doesn't recur. I am STILL HERE though I have been terrified and wanted to give up.
I know many who have lived as full a life as possible WiTH DP/DR .... that doesn't mean they are cured and I know them personally.

AND WHERE IN THE WORLD DID I SAY THERE IS NO TRAUMA INVOLVED?????????? WE DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH NATURE/NURTURE IS INVOLVED
BUT AGAIN I MYSELF WAS ABUSED.
SO I GET MORE ABUSE HERE.


How could I as a 4/5 year old be experiencing this, begging my mother for help for years, not knowing there were more than 3 people on Earth with this disorder.
And I get kicked in the ass for sharing my experience.

You are outright vicious.
I really want to say this and it isn't my style, but F YOU. I found other sufferers at age 42. I knew very little about DP before then, what was wrong with me.

The OP again posted a theory. Well why is he/she on the board posting? Doesn't want to get well?
OMG, I don't believe this. I am crying so hard right now, and you wouldn't give a crap.

Oh and excuse me, but since I take a medication for my cancer there are certain drugs I cannot try. BUT, I am currently in a study at U. of M. about accpressure. My F-in' mind is open. I would report back with that -- how it helps w/fatigue in breast cancer survivors, but WTH for?

Edited by Dreamer*, 19 March 2012 - 12:36 PM.


#22 violetgirl

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 02:41 PM

Wow, so many excellent points being made here.
Let me just say even though I am recovered from the chronic DP i had since chilhdood, I am still recovering from the after effects of a traumatic upbringing. I have had such a disturbing but eye opening time, just looking at how the world justifies and hides abuse.

Dreamer- Your posts make me angry, and your viewpoint on psychiatry does, because you are supporting a system, as far as I'm concerned that hides and treats trauma and emotional disorders as mental illness, which is then medicated and creates a lot of money. I know why you are like this, I know your background with your psychiatrist mother, and there is obviously some attachment to this sytem. But this system is keeping you in this state! I can't even begin to imagine the trauma you've had, especially from a mother who was a psychiatrist, and add this to the OCD and the Depersonalised state, I can understand why you cling to this. But other people want to get out of this condition, and the system you support is holding them back! Posting all these studies, and unfortunately people will read them and assume because it comes from a doctor it is legit. NewYork is right, nothing you post comes from 'you'. There is no emotion behind it, just medical jargon. This is not an attack, but it's something I've noticed as well.

Huggy Bear- I also had DP for 20 years, but am recovered. I can tell you I went to hell and back to find a way out, and the psychiatric system was useless. I have found Mindfulness, DBT and Trauma Releasing Exercises really helpful. I also did a lot of reading on how trauma effects children, attachment disorders. I love your point about the Catholic church. Read up on Alice Miller, she has written many books on acceptable forms of child abuse, it's just mindblowing! The psychiatric system enables child abuse, because it medicalises trauma disorders and makes the patient feel ashamed of their feelings. It's disgusting. I have so much anger and loathing of the MH system, because I was let down so many times and just labeled with 'depression' and had anti-depressants thrown at me. Which made me feel that my emotions were somehow wrong and sick. I was never ever asked how things were at home, despite displaying pretty obvious trauma reactions (self-harm, anger, suicide attempts).

NewYork- Keep up with this attitude. I hope you post more about this 'neurofeedback' you talked about in another post. We are only beginning to understand how trauma affects children. Many don't learn to self-soothe, or to regulate their emotions etc. Recovery takes time, but you will learn so much along the way. I had to really 'think outside the box' and challenge everything I knew about families, society, humanity. It was crazy!

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 05:50 PM

Now that I feel less hurt and attacked, I need to say to various people here.

1. I am currently in DBT. I have a Clinical Social Worker with whom I talk, work on projects, journal with, etc. I see my psychiatrist (a resident at the University) for meds reviews. I must see him every 6 months or I cannot get my meds. I practice Yoga, my own form of meditation, etc.

2. Violetgirl, to attack me when you know I was abused is cruel. I have difficulties with feeling unloved. As far as I'm concerned I had no parents.

3. You have no idea what I went through as an only child, feeling lonely for years. And both of my parents were much older than I. My father has been gone almost 21 years. My mother has been gone almost 12 years. I don't miss them. They did NOT love me. I have no extended family to speak of.

4. My mother was trained in psychoanalysis. Don't make assumptions. She would attack me left and right using Freud, then saying I was "a bag of genetic garbage." She hated everyone, not just me.

Being traumatized as noted affects us all. But to varying degrees.
My only point was that PTSD, is a different illness from DPD. I have DPD. I actually mentioned my severe reaction to your comments and others here to my therapist ... I want to be liked. She said, the two, PTSD and DPD, are not the same -- she has patients with DID, PTSD, chronic DPD, and anxiety disorders of various sorts. She has been a therapist working with individuals who have been traumatized ... oh about 25 years.

5. Also, I have some borderline traits which benefit from DBT which is actually based on Buddhism. I know, and my therapist said, "Why is it so important what this woman or others on this board think of you?" And I said, I want to be loved. But the love I want is from my mother. She has to remind me of that. That scar is permanent. I was feeling suicidal over this. And that is a very extreme reaction. I don't blame you. It is my nature, my upbringing, my hopelessness. But why would you treat me this way?

If this place is toxic to me, it is not perpetuating my DP, it is perpetuating my inability to control my emotions when I am hurt. It is a DBT challenge for me not to be hurt by anyone -- to not allow you to hurt me -- to say, "OK, disagree with me" and move on. Mindfulness. Controlling emotions/extremes. I know of mood regulation in DBT.

No one should make assumptions about anyone else here.

And the cruelest thing to say is that someone isn't trying to get better. Step in anyone else's shoes, and walk a mile. You might have a different perspective.

Really too bad when so many others here are looking for help, and get ripped into. Why? Are we not entitled to approach our illness in different ways? Steve Jobs chose to use alternative medicine for his pancreatic cancer against the wishes of his family. He got worse. Conventional treatments then didn't work, alternatives in his case didn't work and the cancer spread. He may not have died. But that was his choice. He was always that way -- read his recent biography. I don't judge him for something I wouldn't choose to do.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Ah, and was it Huggy Bear? If I have issues with my MOTHER, she could have been a plumber and I still would have issues with her. Her views on humanity, her patients, psychiatry were all so crazy I didn't believe much of what she had to say. I have learned from others with mental illnesses.

#24 forestx5

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:12 PM

I'll just express a few facts and my opinion, (without differentiating one from the other.) I think DP is more frequently a symptom than a distinct disorder. PTSD is more the disorder.
A physical trauma that results in a TBI might plausibly cause both PTSD and DP. For my money, the mirror test would differentiate DP from PTSD. If you can't pass the mirror test, then your temporal lobe is not in resonance. You have symptoms of DP. I don't think failing the mirror test is an indication of uncomplicated PTSD.




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