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#13 Guest_manchild_*

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 03:11 AM

hmmmm
Is it probable that DP/DR is just an illusion that we create for our selves.
When I really do anaylise how it feels it seems not so much that "i cant feel my emotions" or "the world doesnt look real" , but "i dont think i can feel my emotions" or "i dont think the world looks real". In other words by obbsesive self monitoring and questioning everything it removes all the elements of realism because you more or less doubt everything and dont take everything for granted.

Another thing that makes me think about this is people that have ahad it for very long periods of time. How would it be possible that they could remeber what feeling normal is? i mean they no longer have a bench mark. So wouldnt a state of DP/DR actually be the normal, however they still have a constant feeling that it is not.

It seems that we still experience the world in exactly the same way it is just however what we subcounsciouly choose to make of these experiences.

Does anyone else agree with what i have just said??
Janine? (you seem to understand it pretty well)

#14 Guest_Janinebaker_*

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 09:40 AM

I understand your concept there, but not sure I totally agree.

I think what happens is that EVERY minute that we are dp'd or dr'd, we are constantly experiencing within that instant a feeling of being "off" somehow. We are in an altered state of consciousness, and it's like we've stepped to one side of the mirrored self.

Example: even if you were to have an entirely NEW experience, go to an entirely new locale, meet entirely new people and maybe have an entirely new life event....you would still perceive it all through the lens of "dp and dr." It's not that you are comparing your current experience to past ones (this is an experience you've never had before, so you have nothing to compare it TO)....yet, still you are aware on some level of how you WOULD feel in the new situation if you were in a normal state of consciousness.

Part of what makes it so horrible is not only is it DIFFERENT from what we once experienced (the Normal State) but it feels different each and every moment because we are simultaneously aware of how we WOULD seem at that moment if we were not in this altered state.

It's the Duality of consciousness that makes it a unique hell. We both know and don't know at the same time how we WOULD feel, despite how we currently perceive reality and the self.

That's what makes this symptom 'dissociative' - the dissociation experience always includes a dual awareness - this is both ME and simultaneously, NOT ME. Under pure delusion, we simply would believe the current experience to be True. Disavowal (defense allowing us to both know and not know) makes us aware of that which we cannot totally FEEL.

I don't think it's only that how we feel right now is so different from the past. I think we are acutely experiencing in the moment the difference between our perceptions and the knowledge of those perceptions' inaccuracies.

That's why we are able to say "it feels AS IF I am not me..." or "I feel AS IF things are not real..." We are not actually believing those things, we are "seeing reality" AS IF we believe them all the while knowing the difference.

We'd be happier if we were more delusional, lol...

peace,
J

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 01:40 PM

Example: even if you were to have an entirely NEW experience, go to an entirely new locale, meet entirely new people and maybe have an entirely new life event....you would still perceive it all through the lens of "dp and dr."


Bingo!

I moved 1,800 miles in 1998 to take a job in Houston, Texas. I thought moving that far away and starting something brand new would cure me of DP/DR. I was wrong. Same hell, diferent city. Janine is right yet again.

Take good care,

Jeff

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 04:19 AM

Yes, it's quite suprising how many people think that a change of scene will make their DP miraculously disappear. I thought this when I was first savaged by DR at university in Glasgow. I was even more terrified when I got back home and the DR was still there ! Perhaps even worse because the home that I saw in front of my eyes, the home that in my memory was a sanctuary of peace and normality, looked so strange and bizarre!

But, as they say, you can't run away from your head !! It's with you wherever you go ! You don't 'find yourself' on top of a mountain in Tibet...you find yourself and your capacity for coping with suffering in everyday life.

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 07:11 AM

Hey Martin, are you recovered from Drug-induced DP?

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 07:38 AM

Hi Mark,

Yep. I've had two seperate episodes of DR (hardly ever DP), first time due to Cannabis, second time due to 'e'. In both cases, the DR and anxiety faded over about a year. I am still prone to anxiety and perhaps depression, but this is rather more due to personal issues than anything, but the drug abuse has definately left me more of an neurotic person. In anycase, the DR has never returned, even at my lowest.

#19

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 07:57 AM

You know, that's a big difference between drug and psychological induced DP/DR. When drugs are involved it's mainly DR that disturbing the victims. I also suffer mainly from DR and just a little DP

#20 dalailama15

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Posted 18 August 2004 - 05:47 PM

Another thing that makes me think about this is people that have had it for very long periods of time. How would it be possible that they could remeber what feeling normal is? i mean they no longer have a bench mark. So wouldnt a state of DP/DR actually be the normal, however they still have a constant feeling that it is not.

This is a good question, and the answer is not difficult. But it is, like many things about DP, hard to articulate and perhaps hard to understand.

First there is memory. It is all still there, going back to the beginning. And when something triggers one of these memories--it could be anything, and lately it seems to be happening several times a day--it is not just what happened, but also how it felt.

The cut-off for these memories is about 30 years ago, and since then. . . I have created no more. The memories since then are also all there, but they don't carry the emotional material--"I did this," and "I did that" could just as well be "It did this," "and "It did that."

But before, in the childhood and adolescent memories, the "I" really means something. That I loved his friends and his family, was (for example) an accomplished musician who loved his instrument, the way it felt in his hands, the way it smelled, , the color of its tone, the hours of practice and the joy of finally climbing above a plateau, That I experienced joy all the time.

I can remember that, and the difference between before and after is immediately there and immediately painful.

The other thing: the moments. These are much more rare, it seems perhaps on average, once or twice a year. They are like waking up from a dream, a bit of transcendence, a loftier point of view. And from this height I see that I have been living some one else's life. I may also see the sky and feel it, again, as it was before.

And then there are dreams.




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