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Real vs not real


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#1 Emptyflask

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Posted 08 July 2020 - 12:41 AM

How many others on here have a worrying idea, questioning if anything really exists at all or if even YOU exist at all? Like even your awareness? Its ruining me. Like as if everything perceived is the unreal stuff or even that your perception/awareness doesnt exist? I keep wondering if its possible that this whole reality doesnt actually exist.
It all started with me thinking what if i can perceive only things that dont exist, including myself.

#2 Chip1021

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Posted 08 July 2020 - 01:29 AM

I never understood the obsession with solipsistic thinking that comes with these conditions. Sure, it feels like nothing exists, but I acknowledge that that is likely an issue with something in my brain going haywire. Solipsism cannot be proved not disproved. Period. There is no point obsessing about it. All we can do—must do—is act as if it is all real, and try to find meaning in all of it.

I’m sure this. wasn’t helpful. I’m sure you’ve heard this before.

Unless of course you’re not freaked out by these ideas and just want to have a conversation about them, in which case forget everything I said above, lol.

#3 PerfectFifth

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 02:17 AM

How can your awareness not exist if you're aware? Seems like a logical contradiction.

It all started with me thinking what if i can perceive only things that dont exist, including myself.

This makes no sense to me. If they didn't exist, would it not follow that there should be nothing to perceive at all? Something that doesn't exist surely should be unavailable to our sensory experience. It shouldn't have any form at all because, by definition, if something doesn't exist, it is nothing, or rather it isn't anything. If there is something to perceive, then something must exist.

 

Because you're aware, your awareness must exist in some sense. If your awareness didn't exist, you would be dead, in a fully vegetative state, or you simply would never have existed. 



#4 Emptyflask

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Posted 10 July 2020 - 12:41 AM

How can your awareness not exist if you're aware? Seems like a logical contradiction.

This makes no sense to me. If they didn't exist, would it not follow that there should be nothing to perceive at all? Something that doesn't exist surely should be unavailable to our sensory experience. It shouldn't have any form at all because, by definition, if something doesn't exist, it is nothing, or rather it isn't anything. If there is something to perceive, then something must exist.
 
Because you're aware, your awareness must exist in some sense. If your awareness didn't exist, you would be dead, in a fully vegetative state, or you simply would never have existed.


Before i read this i actually came to the same conclusion about myself existing. I know i have to exist. The other part is like what if awareness can pick up on things that are impossible too? Like that they appear too as impossibilities and i wouldnt know it? So far the only thing ive proved is I (as in just my awareness) exists but idk about anything else. This questioning does sound very irrational i know, but it freaks me out enough to consider it.

#5 Emptyflask

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Posted 10 July 2020 - 12:42 AM

Life is like a dream in many ways. We take sensory input and filter it through our perception in order to construct our views of reality. If we perceive something with our senses, we usually believe it, but sometimes we're capable of doubt, and maybe even get stuck in cycles of doubt. Some people think that rational, skeptical, and scientific thinking involves only believing in the material world and the things we can see, but it's actually more philosophical than that. The scientists and mathematicians who try to further understanding of our universe often ask themselves the same questions you have in this thread. It's part of the human experience and part of being an intelligent being, the awareness that the nature of our world might allude us, and that our perceptions can deceive us. Here are some links to videos I remember about the topic. The first one is a clip from an interview with Elon Musk about the theory we could be in a simulation, and the second is a famous three and a half hour lecture by Alan Watts called The Joker. The third is the debut episode of a pop science show called The Brain with David Eagleman.
 
Are We in a Simulation? - Elon Musk
https://www.youtube....h?v=xBKRuI2zHp0
 
Alan Watts, "The Joker"
https://www.youtube....h?v=etYmg1_k-Dk
 
The Brain with David Eagleman episode 1: What is reality?
=b&google_params[network]=s&google_params[device]=c&google_params[creative]=431968303578&google_params[keyword]=&google_params[adposition]=&google_params[adgroupid]=102081328202&google_params[campaignid]=9904326693&bs=&google_params[feeditemid]=&google_params[targetid]=dsa-473508056637&google_params[loc_interest_ms]=&google_params[loc_physical_ms]=9053084&google_params[devicemodel]=&google_params[target]=&new_api=true&dest=0&sys_id=0|734&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIt5KOkYO_6gIVx56zCh2NDgdLEAAYASAAEgJCgPD_BwE]https://www.watchonline.guide/tv-shows/the-brain-with-david-eagleman/season-1/episode-1

thanks for the vids, i appeciate it.

#6 Emptyflask

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Posted 10 July 2020 - 12:43 AM

Unless of course you’re not freaked out by these ideas and just want to have a conversation about them, in which case forget everything I said above, lol.


Man i wish i wasnt freaked out by it, it just seems like a real possibility to me at the moment.

#7 PerfectFifth

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Posted 10 July 2020 - 09:22 AM

Before i read this i actually came to the same conclusion about myself existing. I know i have to exist. The other part is like what if awareness can pick up on things that are impossible too? Like that they appear too as impossibilities and i wouldnt know it? So far the only thing ive proved is I (as in just my awareness) exists but idk about anything else. This questioning does sound very irrational i know, but it freaks me out enough to consider it.

Yeah, it's quite irrational. Something being "impossible" is more or less just a tautology for something not existing, so you're back to square one. How can thing X be impossible if it's there for you to sense and clearly has a form? Clearly it *is* there and exists in some sense. If I'm not entirely mistaken, you're probably talking about those objects being illusory in some way, as in their essence is somehow different from how you perceive them (or how they seem to exist in this reality), or that they're "fake".

 

I haven't dropped my go-to response to these threads yet, so here we go: why does it matter? Why does any of this matter? I couldn't care less whether this is actual, fundamental reality or not, whether my existence is solipsistic, etc. It makes absolutely no difference, and I can't prove it one way or another. It's little more than a waste of time to even think of this. It gets you nowhere. It's an intellectual dead end. 

 

Whether a table "really exists" is ultimately irrelevant to me. Why? Because it exists to me, and everyone else in this existence, in practice. I can utilize it. It exists to me in this reality, whatever the fundamental nature of said reality. I'm in this "container", and all that matters to me is what takes place in the container and how it operates, how the laws within the container work. The ultimate realness or whatever of the stuff inside the container is irrelevant. And besides, I have no reason to assume it isn't fundamental reality. 

 

Okay, everything may be fake and so on. Now, tell me why this matters to you. This life is what it is, and it's going to keep going like it has been since you were born, until your death, whatever the fundamental nature of it.

 

This pondering would be worthwhile if it was at all possible to even investigate. But no, it's not. It's impossible to prove or disprove. 



#8 Grindelwald

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Posted 10 July 2020 - 08:04 PM

For the record, Elon Musk is well regarded as a crackpot.



#9 Grindelwald

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Posted 10 July 2020 - 08:12 PM

Remember that solipsism doesn't just apply to you, it applies to everyone. There's just no way to prove there is any other consciousness besides your own, even if you were able to magically "jump" into someone else's point of view. In fact, you can't even know that you exist, you can only say that *something* exists. Consciousness is weird. But everyone has their own consciousness and the concept of solipsism applies to everyone. Fear of this idea stems from a disconnect between your mind and body and a loss of sense of self. 



#10 Emptyflask

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Posted 03 August 2020 - 03:01 AM

Thanks to you all for replying, its helped me.

#11 James_80

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Posted 03 August 2020 - 07:39 AM

I would say losing emotional connection to what is perceived is the reason for the doubt and the questioning. The loss of emotional connection is what happens with dp and shows the subjective nature of experiencing reality. When that happens it is only rational to question if what is perceived through the senses is actually really happening as an external event or is simply a hallucination of some sorts. If the external reality doesn't really exist then you don't exist either as a person within that reality. Something worth thinking about though is that this fear is coming from the perspective of the person that does exist within that reality. Something I would say to anyone who is worried about questioning reality is to explore that idea to an extent that you are not afraid of it anymore. Read/listen to Alan Watts and Eckhart Tolle who both talk about this concept in a reassuring and comforting way. You can do your best to ignore it in fear or go into it with curiosity. It's nothing to be afraid of ultimately. The thing to concentrate on is reducing the anxiety in your life so your emotional connection comes back.



#12 Absent

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Posted 06 August 2020 - 06:54 AM

Hello, I would say that if you question what is real and extant then you know what is real and extant. In DPD I inevitably ponder the nature of reality but for me, doubting  reality is not worth the spiralling nightmare of that. Philosophising is part of an intelligent person questioning consciousness, but I would take time out from it and just want to be in this world. It is real, we are describing the same place and time. DPRD rejects it but craving it proves the value of its reality. Whatever awareness and perceptions represent, I WANT it! I just need a non-DP/DR experience of the here and now and that would be special. I generally only experience what I can imagine but I still know what is true and not. DPRD is a horrible trap but I hope you can avoid these cycles of doubt.  






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