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7K views 69 replies 11 participants last post by  wise 
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#1 · (Edited)
#11 ·
You obviously didn't read the post. I said, individuals are BORN gay. In early psychiatric literature, the DSM-III it was believed homosexuality was a MENTAL ILLNESS.....
Just want to say this: Your posts are enlightening!
Keep posting Dreamer!

This is, I think is off-topic but I'll take my chances.

I have a beef with any categorical statement that 'one is BORN this or that way'.
A more correct statement might be that one is born with a predispostion, either strong or weak, to being gay (for example).
Studies on identical twins bear this out.
One study (can't for the life of me find these links) found only half of pairs of identical twins turned out to be gay.
Or put this way: only half the time did both twins self-report as being gay. what about the other half (of a pair) who did not identify 'himself' as being gay?
Identical twins have identical DNA's. What accounts for the other 50%'s not being gay? Environment, willing choice or some other factors?

Honest, scientific inquiry into the aetiology of human sexuality (IN GENERAL) was all but abandoned or bludgeoned out of existence since the 80's by activists groups and those with a particular social agenda.
On sundry occasions, I searched for hours looking for some recent articles - truly scientific ones - and could not find a single one.
The ones I did find were either dealing with it from a moral angle or from a social standpoint, dealing with the politics of the issue.
In my view, it is unfair to tell a person to resign himself to an orientation to which the person has serious issues and would like to feel differently.
Everyone deserve to be given options.
 
#12 ·
Here's my thnking, dpd *is* a dissociative disorder, no if ands or buts. Dp *symptoms* can come as a side order to other disorders, that doesn't mean you change what category it's in. Anxiety and depression would likely have a subclass like major depressive disorder "with dissociative features", there is currently one that is major depression "with psychotic features". I don't think that article says much of anything. They're just realizing what I've seen here, dissociation can be symptoms of other things.

I've actualy had an idea, a new visual way of looking at the web of dx's and categories, but I think it's legit, novel and possibly groundbreaking so I'm not sharing
 
#13 · (Edited by Moderator)
and? what the hell will happen if some psychiatrists take it from one category and put it into another? what?
For now … nothing. Though when first reading this topic was struck with the fear that they will react all the more insistently by stuffing SSRIs down peoples throats.

IMO, expressions such as "multidimensional picture of DPD" indicate that if they could further subdivide the groups of DPD sufferers, they may be better able to provide meaningful assistance (treat).

Right now, there seems to be a shortage of understanding (even acknowledging the existence of) DPD in the psychological community. This hardly helps people seeking help.

For the now, one of the most important things is to try to find out if DP if a symptom of another disorder or if it is a primary diagnosis.
 
#21 ·
That's very true.

I don't think they will change to an anxiety disorder because of the nature of the condition, those who experience Dp as symptom FROM an anxiety disorder have anxiety disorders, those who experience DP and DR from an specific traumatic event have PSTD (lets say it roughly), there are some conditions that are exclusive and that means, for example, that you can't have Bipolar disorder and Multiple personalities disorder at the same time.

So roughly if you have another axis I condition that means you do not have DPD, and I believe they will not change it to anxiety disorder since Depersonalization is already included in other anxiety disorders diagnosis as a symptom.

And even though people might say here that everybody who has DPD actually is anxious, all people with Schizophrenia, somatoform disorders, burnout syndrome or PSTD are also anxious due to the distressing nature of the condition but anxiety itself didn't cause the condition, event though it might play a role in maintaining the condition it didn't start it.

In this case it's an etiologic matter; the anxiety comes from the condition (dpd) and NOT the condition comes from the anxiety and I will agree here with Visual, they should sub divide groups of DPD patients. I still believe though that if someone is chronic patient he will eventually develop DP as symptom and this might be happening to some of us now...

The DPD question if far more complex and I truly believe that science is actually clueless about it, and since I'm not taking any conventional medication or treatment with doctors, except for psychotherapy and I am proud to announce that it has worked wonders for me, I overcame DR and I'm only having rare episodes of DP, the changes on DSM 5 won't affect me, and if you're wise enough you should not let it affect you.

Live a fulfilling life and be honest to yourself and you will find your way out!

good luck to everyone!
 
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#18 · (Edited)
Wow, this thread's a spieecy meeaatboll!
I'd try not to take it personally, Dreamer. I don't necessarilly think that some of the stronger responses were meant as personal "attacks", it's just that the nature of the material is such that it is always going to push some people's buttons, as it's essentially about which filing cabinet your being put into.
For many people who are struggling right now and just want some practical help, reading about some stuffed shirts in a board room discussing which subsection of which paragraph things are being subdivided into can sound like so much irrelevant hot air, and is a source of frustration. I completely understand that. It's the dehumanising slicing and dicing of people that so often misses the actual person and their real needs. But at the same time, I recognise that possible reclassifications, as irritating and labyrinthine as the subject may be, could infuence just how effectively doctors can misdiagnose and mistreat their patients in the future (
) , so of course it is relevant and will be of interest to some.
So again, don't take an attack on the subject matter as an attack on yourself.
 
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#20 ·
Hi Dreamer, That's awful you were treated that way. To have no postive emotional feedback, and be so completely undermined on every level can't have left you any space just to grow into yourself naturally, to be safe, to make mistakes and just be you. With nothing to depend on or take for granted we doubt everything and can't trust ourselves or anything else. Anyone would have struggled. I can't pretend to know how hard that must of been, but perhaps understand to some extent in a small way. I hope you surround yourself these days with people you can trust. It is sad to see grown adults, like your friend, still hankering for some emotional bone from a parent who is clearly incapable of providing it. It is cold comfort, but recognising that their parents behaviour came from their own derangements, that they failed us and were blind to it, and it was not because we were fundamentally "wrong" somehow, I think is important in shifting responsibilty and dissolving the negative impression they might have left on us, without wallowing in bitterness. You just see things clearly and realistically as they were. It doesn't make you a bad person if you don't mourn them, if they were only a source of pain.
Maybe it's easy for me to say not to take things personally. I was trying to be objective as I felt I could appreciate where people with differing views were coming from, but I suspect that actually most people, with mental health issues or not, would take it abit personally, at least at first. and for us it can hurt more and feel very personal if it triggers painful associations.

I expect that to alot of people questions of reclassification seem to be very divorced from their immediate concerns. Maybe, as with political matters, We all aught to be more engaged, but just as with politics, people are understandably cynical about it. It can just seem like faceless people, far away, taking decisions about our lives, without consulting us.
And many people just don't have any energy left for anything else ontop of what they are already dealing with. A fact that often means people with mental health problems do not have a voice and are left open to exploitation. Currently in England a private firm hired by the government, Atos Healthcare, is charged with stopping benefits for those who can't work, and they are targeting the mentally ill, as they are a soft target, and putting lives at risk in the process. There was one case of a young woman with BPD, a suicide risk, who was bombarded with repeated demands to attend medical assesments, threatening to cut her off, despite repeated letters of protestation from her GP. As a result of this she slashed her wrists. So the fact that you are engaged with current events and (if I'm right in thinking) campaign for mental health awareness really is to be commended. It's alot more than most of us ever do.
 
#25 ·
Like you can have major depression and general anxiety, or OCD and bipolar, many of the symptoms say it's one dx if it happens exclusive of another disorder, like if your anxiety symptoms happen only when you're manic bu not when you're depressed you wouldn't have an anxiety disorder, but if you were anxious all the time even if you weren't depressed or manic you coul dhave an anxiety disorder too for example
 
#26 · (Edited by Moderator)
It's kind of rare to have major depression and generalized anxiety at the same time, if you're a doctor or psychologist and make a proper assessment you will find out either one thing or another, the number of conditions on axis I you can dx the same person is very limited. I am fully aware that can be overlaps but they're very limited

for example you can't have

* GAD + OCD (same branch)
* OCD + hypocondria (obsession is criteria)
* OCD + anorexia/bulimia any other eating disorder (3)
* OCD + Psychotic disorders (13)
* OCD + Sexual Disoders (30)
* OCD + Somatoform Disorders (8 disoders)
* OCD + Drug related mental problems (about 100)
* OCD + During depression or during suicidal ideation.
* OCD + Anxiety disorders (14 )
* OCD + Dissociative Disorders (3 disorders)

* OCD + Impulse control disorders (6 disorders)
* OCD + Adjustment disorder (6 disorders)
* OCD + Mood disorders (38)- 4 can be overlapped with OCD (34)
___________________________________________________

217 disorders that can't be overlapped with OCD

This is about the same for the rest, that's what I said most can't be overlapped within axis I, there are cases tho
 
#29 · (Edited by Moderator)
there you go - well spotted
You know the problem is that things are not in a practical matter what they are theoretically

Theoretically changing DPD from a cluster to another could change medical treatment, the implications of having it in anxiety clusters would be an anxiety treatment approach.
There are series of neurochemical, brain area, etiologic implications in changing a condition from one cluster to another. DPD is very misunderstood VERY misunderstood and poorly treated, there is NO specific medicine for depersonalization/dissociation, if it would rather stay in an independent cluster such as dissociation there would be better changes of developing new drugs YET I don't think there will ever be a magical pill to solve your psychological problems, DPD is in most cases drug induced or happen to people with lots of traumas and painful lives

In a practical sense tho we know that if you change from clusters the immediate effect will be the kinds of prescriptions for it, if they change it to Psychotic you my dear fellow dpd's will start being prescribed antipsychotics which I think won't be good, if it goes to anxiety it will be benzos, if it's mood or bipolar it will be lithium, and so on.

Yet I think the new discoveries made over DPD neurochemical mechanisms would be already enough to design a medication, just saying; as far as I know the way a dp'd brain work isn't the same as any of those above, in my humble opinion DP is a deregulation in endo-opioids or endo-cannabinoids, and taking SSRI, Lithium, Anti psych... you're better off with voodoo. I think the actual whole problem with DPD is that it's far more complex than what they think, because they don't know, in truth they have no more clue than most here.

About 90% of people here take meds and I wonder, did it work? how fast?

So at some point I agree with you, changing it from a place to another won't be so useful in a practical sense specially in the short term, but let's hope it will disappoint our predictions and actually have a practical positive impact
 
#30 ·
I don't think putting it into another category would improve treatment or make for new medications...there are plnety of dr's and researchers who essentially ignore te category and explore treTments traditionally intended for ther disorders. I've been on meds for dimentia, firomyalgia, psychosis, addiction, seizures, all trying to treat dp or dissociation
 
#36 · (Edited by Moderator)
...
2. No one is going to move DP/DR to the category of psychosis. OMG. LOL.
3. There is more than medication or a "magic bullet" involved here. There are other treatments including transcranial stiumlation, etc. (Dissociative states can be created when individuals are being operated on for brain tumors, etc.) NOT knowing now, but discussing the topic, is at least a positive sign. The more discussion the greater awareness.

...

I have also repeated, as does the journal article, that the International Classification of Medical Disorders does NOT have DP/DR in the disoociative category. The DSM DOES. There is a conflict over classification INTERNATIONALLY. So the US is keeping it in dissociative disorders, other countries DO NOT have it in the category. This isn't MY idea, LOL.
Dear Dreamer,

I never intended to do it here but after I read read your comment I have to say;

What I said were just examples.

2- I too am a researcher and I research DPD or at least used to in university, so I've read almost all about what there is in DPD research and I am aware even of research being DEVELOPED on the field, yet I'm NOT so optimistic, they found out about subatomic particles in 1950, only now they are able to work and effectively study it.
Stem cells are known from long ago also, not much has been put into the health system, no on used it to solve no one's diabetes in public hospitals, and blood from births is thrown away everyday...

3- I never said that we should stop research but researchers right now are extremely clueless about the disease, NO ONE has ever made a deep research on WHY people develop it, so WHY, that what I ask WHY to even bother moving it from one side to the other, ICD is old and DPD there can't be present without DR, this definition has been there for quite a while and it's lame (I've read it and you have no idea how many times).

4- As a matter of fact there will not be any significant improvement in the DP treatment next year so don't be optimistic, ofc it's good when people research about it, but like 3/4 of people researching on it DO NOT HAVE GENUINE INTEREST IN CURING THE GODDAMN FUCKING DISEASE, WHAT THEY WANT TO DO IS TO PUBLISH FUCKING PAPERS EVERY 3 MONTHS OTHERFUCKINGWISE THEY WOULD BE RESEARCHING INTO THE EFFECT OF SOME TREATMENT FOR DPD SUFFERERS, DO THEY DO IT NO. WHAT THEY ARE DOING RIGHT NOW IS RESEARCHING INTO HOW MISERABLE IS THE MISERY OF THE DPD BRAIN/PATIENTS/PEOPLE and I know it so, so, so damn well, that's how the Sci research showbiz runs. Researching to something to cure something specially in Psychiatry/psychology takes LOTS of money and doesn't show good "statistical quality" of results and most of all are costly and take too long,because you can't really turn people outcomes into numbers and say "individuals treated by method X got an improvement of 74.56% at 0.0006 reliability". Thats just why nobody does it.

Researchers are humans beings and they have deadlines and need to eat (and therefore get money) this is why instead of looking for a "cure" they will first research and make compilations of previous research instead of doing something truly positive about it and not only positive To themselves. And BTW trans cranial brain stimulation or whatsoever is just a completely generic measure, it works for many other conditions, or at least change it somewhat but there is no SPECIFIC reason for what they do it.

I don't want to sound arrogant or anything, but the world runs on money so research does. I don't want to sound arrogant or anything, but that's how it is and I know it because I am there.
 
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