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DPD is acquired Aspergers. Period.


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#1 Pro-Naif

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 03:38 AM

***** These are simply my own thoughts. I'm no doctor or scientist, but COME ON *****

You are born with Autism; you can't "get" Autism... horsesh*t. I think you can, it's just that it's called "depersonalization disorder." Obviously the causes or "etiology" is different, the subjective experience is different because of the etiology, but the disorder/dysfunction itself seems identical. If you've spent a lot of time reading about depersonalization and haven't read about autism, you must. Think about it...

It's exactly how we all feel. To take my personal version: it's the feeling you have when you walk out of a movie theater and it takes a few seconds or minutes to "snap back" to reality after rubbing your face and eyes and shaking out the cobwebs. With DPD, that snapping back simply never happens. People I've talked to seem to have a vague idea of what that means unlike a weird description of "living in a dream" or saying "nothing seems real." I suggest you use a similar analogy if you want people to even attempt to understand... afterall, it's not an analogy; it's them actually experiencing depersonalization briefly.

Watch all the YouTube videos of people with Aspergers and tell me that's not how you feel... Maybe I have Aspergers? Ok, well I remember exactly when it started, and I remember what it was like not to have it, so either there is such a thing as acquired Aspergers (which hasn't been documented) or DPD simply IS ACQUIRED ASPERGERS. The people in those videos aren't frustrated and desperate like we are because they have never felt anything different: congenital Aspergers - they've always had it... Imagine if you had never felt any different than the way you do with DPD. What would you be like? the way they are, I bet...

I read about the treatments for Autism and I think, "I want that! Help!" But I don't always act like that; sometimes I'm on autopilot that was programmed during the 20+ years of my life I DIDN'T feel this way... Anyway, I needed to rant about that. It seems so obvious to me. Seems like if we define the problem better, the solution would be clearer.

So, I read about treatments for Aspergers. Surely they wouldn't let me in to the sympathetic world of autism treatment because I don't fit the profile (I'm just the weird lazy guy who won't get his act together) so I looked into pharmaceutical treatments. There has been a rush of articles in the past few years about how Oxytocin has been shown in trials to help people with Autism to "connect" with other people (just Google "autism oxytocin" or start here: http://blogs.discove...-social-skills/ ) so I decided to get me some and see what happened.

I wasn't sure what I would get but I ordered from a "pharmacy" or called 'United Pharmacies' out of Hong Kong from from this page: http://www.unitedpha...ttle_p_879.html

I read the studies they linked to which you can find on your own if you want and took it as they described in the studies... sort of. The amount I got was 40iu which happens to be the same amount they used in the study: I had ONE DOSE for $100. I was scared of taking a strange medicine from CHINA so I started with an eyeball judgement of 10iu. This is actually quite a lot of liquid to spray up your nose. I have no idea how they administered four times that much, it must have taken 10 minutes. I didn't want to go out in public in case I started hugging or dry-humping everyone or something so I sat down on the couch and watched TV: a republican presidential debate because I'm a loser.

Long story short(er): I felt like I could tell where the people on the TV were "coming from" better than normal, i.e. he's angry, she's defensive, etc. This "knowledge" just seemed to come out of nowhere. How did I know that so quick? Normally with DPD that knowledge would have come through analyzing something or other about the situation. Somehow the recall just seemed slightly more "immediate." This seemed like a result to me. When I repeated the process and went out to my local pub a few nights later I again felt slightly different, but enough that I could notice other people noticing and it made me happy. This also seemed like a result. It didn't last more than an hour or so, but something happened. It DID NOT make depersonalization go away instantaneously, but I felt like the doors that had been shut to reality had been unlocked and I was peaking my head through a little bit, but it was still up to me to start exploring again. I hadn't been there in so long that I was scared and tentative. Who knows what I could have done if I took the whole bottle (one full dose) and also had any form of support.

Well that's the story for now. I will be checking on this for awhile if anyone wants to talk about it.

PS - I've read us DPD people question reality and existence and all that a lot, but I never hear that people come to any conclusions. I've been into those question my whole life and with DPD I feel like that kind of thinking (aka philosophy) is actually a lot easier. I feel like I've answered all those crazy questions enough that they hardly even bother me any more even though my DPD is as bad as ever. My website is http://www.pro-naif.com if you want to waste an evening reading the thoughts of a random Internet person. I was told keeping busy was good for DPD and I'm unemployed so I made that, but I can't spend all my time on it anymore.

#2 Pro-Naif

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 03:44 AM

By the way, I made sure buying and using that nasal spray I bought was legal. It's just illegal to sell in the US because it's a controlled substance or whatnot. That's called a "loophole" I believe... The trade name is Syntocinon, btw. It's prescribed legally to induce lactation in mothers.

#3 Tilly223

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 05:33 AM

By the way, I made sure buying and using that nasal spray I bought was legal. It's just illegal to sell in the US because it's a controlled substance or whatnot. That's called a "loophole" I believe... The trade name is Syntocinon, btw. It's prescribed legally to induce lactation in mothers.

I think you are on to something - BUT I think some of us may have had Aspergers but it was never diagnosed. Remember it is linked with OCD somehow and sometimes you don't need to have the classic symptoms of Aspergers syndrome to have the disorder.

Of course, some people's DPD may have come on through drugs or severe anxiety without Aspergers - but I think there is a link too.

Please check you're PM.

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 11:34 AM

Every now and then I feel compelled to reply to something that is clearly not true. I am not a doctor, but a mental health advocate w/DP/DR, and have met and read about individuals with Autism spectrum disorders. High functioning to extremely low functioning.

Facts from the Merck Manual: http://www.merckmanu...alt=sh#v1104816

Symptoms and Signs

Classic autistic disorder usually manifests in the first year of life and almost always by age 3. The disorder is characterized by

Atypical interaction (ie, lack of attachment, inability to cuddle or to form reciprocal relationships, avoidance of eye gaze)
Insistence on sameness (ie, resistance to change, rituals, intense attachment to familiar objects, repetitive acts)
Speech and language problems (ranging from total muteness to delayed onset of speech to markedly idiosyncratic use of language)
Uneven intellectual performance

Some affected children injure themselves. About 25% of affected children experience a documented loss of previously acquired skills.

All children with ASD have similar problems with interaction, behavior, and communication; however, the severity of the problems varies widely. Nevertheless, some characteristic features often point to the specific diagnosis (see Table 2: Learning and Developmental Disorders: Autism Spectrum DisordersTables). Children with Asperger's syndrome generally have better intellectual performance than children with classic autistic disorder. They also lack the language delays typical of children with classic autistic disorder. Children with childhood disintegrative disorder develop normally until about age 2, and then their skills deteriorate.

Current theory holds that a fundamental problem in ASD is mind blindness, the inability to imagine what another person might be thinking. This difficulty is thought to result in interaction abnormalities that, in turn, lead to abnormal language development. One of the earliest and most sensitive markers for autism is a 1-yr-old child's inability to point communicatively at objects. It is theorized that the child cannot imagine that another person would understand what was being indicated; instead, the child indicates wants only by physically touching the desired object or using the adult's hand as a tool.

I suggest you read the books of Temple Grandin, Ph.D. -- high functioning Autistic Disorder, or even see the movie "Rain Man" to get a general sense of this. DP/DR is NOT at all the same as autism. I see no correlation. And DP/DR experts I have read cite no connection. I'm open to any reliable research that would support this theory.

Edited by Dreamer*, 05 March 2012 - 11:35 AM.


#5 Visual

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 02:35 PM

DP/DR is NOT at all the same as autism. I see no correlation. And DP/DR experts I have read cite no connection. I'm open to any reliable research that would support this theory.

In general I have to agree. We live in a social 'moment' where it seems popular to define the autistic spectrum very broadly. It seems zillions of people with social difficulties are saying it is because they have Asperger's (even though they don't have a diagnosis).

The only connection/similarities I see is social difficulties and/or possible brain injury (for those with DP/DR as such). Autism disorders occur during early development, often before birth. Could a person have both DP/DR and Asperger's? Why not - many problems are comorbid.

A specialist in Autism that I much enjoy is Dr Herbert. Perhaps some might like these links,

http://www.marthaherbert.org/
http://www.medicalve...rthaHerbert.pdf

#6 Midnight

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 02:38 PM

The problem with DP/DR is that it seems to be included (or symptoms similar to it) in lots of different definitions of different types of mental illnesses.

So fucking confusing.

#7 Quarter Pounder

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 03:10 PM

OP the only thing you managed to prove is that you're an austist (or plain retarded, I don't know).

To all the people that might read this: disregard the post. It's simply misinformation and biased opinions. Thanks.

#8 Pro-Naif

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 03:38 PM

Again, imagine if you had never known what it was like to NOT HAVE depersonalization disorder that I assume all of us reading this do have. What if you felt the way you do now when you were 2 or 3 years old. What do you think you would do? You would have ALL of the problems associated with high-functioning autism in children.

As dreamer cites from the Merck:
Atypical interaction (ie, lack of attachment, inability to cuddle or to form reciprocal relationships, avoidance of eye gaze)
Insistence on sameness (ie, resistance to change, rituals, intense attachment to familiar objects, repetitive acts)
Speech and language problems (ranging from total muteness to delayed onset of speech to markedly idiosyncratic use of language)
Uneven intellectual performance

Do you not feel that!?!? For the love of Christ that's exactly how I FEEL. I don't behave that way all the time because I didn't grow up this way. I have 20+ years of habits from being "normal" that push me along... I feel like a slave to those habits. Like an automaton. I prefer to call it "autopilot."

Dreamer says, "Current theory holds that a fundamental problem in ASD is mind blindness, the inability to imagine what another person might be thinking." Seriously, write a better description of depersonalization disorder as we all feel it... I dare you. "This difficulty is thought to result in interaction abnormalities that, in turn, lead to abnormal language development." Can you imagine if you were in preschool feeling the way you do with DPD and you had to those silly language learning tasks? You would just say "screw it" and start banging your head against the table and acting out. Oh wait, THAT IS WHAT THEY DO! You would have all those intellectual delays that are the hallmark of Asperger's because you wouldn't have a clue what was going on and you wouldn't be able to fill in the blanks with past experiences the way we do to get by.

I have a veritable library on DPD consisting of hundreds of books, articles, stories, and studies. If you see "no correlation" I'm sorry, but it's patently obvious. "Autism disorders occur during early development, often before birth." This is a nonsensical statement. Autism disorders are CAUSED by problems during development, they "occur" throughout a lifetime and never go away. Acquired autism which I believe IS THE SAME AS depersonalization disorder, could be nothing other than the high-functioning variety of autism (Asperger's) because all of the language skills, social skills and such were completely uneffected during development: the disorder wasn't there during development, it was acquired later. Don't list the manifestations of this problem in adults with Asperger's as proof that I'm wrong when I've clearly addressed the point.

It's so obvious to me, I can't figure out why anyone would even deny it??? There's no link in the research? There's also no causal explanation for either in the research. I'm suggesting a place to look - a new idea... if it were in the research I would have just cited it.

#9 Pro-Naif

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 03:41 PM

OP the only thing you managed to prove is that you're an austist (or plain retarded, I don't know).

To all the people that might read this: disregard the post. It's simply misinformation and biased opinions. Thanks.


I accidently +1'd your post which I can't figure out how to take back...

Why on Earth would you call my thoughts misinformation and biased opinions??? Bias??? An explanation of what my bias is would be entertaining to read. Do explain.

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 03:44 PM

I appreciate your post, it's interesting.

It is possible to become Autistic later in life, but it's a very rare phenomenon.

Neurologists have discovered a connection between Autism, Bipolar, and Schizophrenia, all of which cause or are brought about by abnormal brain structures, [and are accompanied by different degrees of Dissociation], because of nervous system disfunction brought about by the brain structure differences that are the disorders.

Personally, I feel there's a difference between Autism and Dissociative Disorders, because Autistics have a poor Theory of Mind, and are very internal, whereas people with DPD can be totally "neurotypical", they've just acquired a "coping mechanism" (DPD), which was induced by too much negative stress(?); it depends on the person.

I get your argument though, because environment can/does trigger genetic mutations in all living organisms, but Autism is a very specific genetic mutation that affects the brain/nervous system; there was a study in Korea that says the 'Autism gene is more common, than once thought', http://www.cnn.com/2...tudy/index.html, and just because someone doesn't behave a certain way, doesn't mean they don't carry a specific gene that can't be triggered later on in life in some degree or another; this video explains that theory, http://video.google....166965081178368

Even if you have Asperger's Syndrome you're still human :)

#11 kate_edwin

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 04:26 PM

no. they know more about autism, it's very very different. it may seem similar, but that's because most of us have no actually experienced autism and we're just associating what we think it might be like. but I don't think they're related

#12 Pro-Naif

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 06:03 PM

Personally, I feel there's a difference between Autism and Dissociative Disorders, because Autistics have a poor Theory of Mind, and are very internal, whereas people with DPD can be totally "neurotypical", they've just acquired a "coping mechanism" (DPD), which was induced by too much negative stress(?); it depends on the person.


People with DPD don't have a poor "Theory of Mind," whatever that is, because they already came up with one back before they had DPD. I can't imagine feeling the way I do with DPD (i.e. acquired Asperger and still being considered "neurotypical." I assume that everyone with DPD knows what it's like to feel like something is totally wrong. That is ATYPICAL by definition in my book. Why do you assume you can't have a coping mechanism and be neurologically atypical?

Where have you ever heard of any form of autism being acquired after the first few years of life in the absence of brain injury?




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